The reason for me ending trial..

[Nazarov]

In hindsight this post probably should have been made before leaving the guild to engage in discussion. However I will make my point to outline some fundamental downfalls I’ve experienced on my trial period.

You’re a self proclaimed hardcore guild, you’re also a guild on the forefront of server progression and will attract hardcore players on those two basis alone. The ethics and outlook of every hardcore player do not differ greatly, we are active and wanting and willing to raid - we prepare weeks in advance and strife to optimise our character to the best of our ability - we do not go AFK during raids - we have read up on the encounters and know our role in the raid. We are every raid leaders wet dream.


I have been a guild leader and raid leader in bleeding edge entities and have always been very involved with the PR and recruitment aspects. Firstly, never recruit a hardcore player without cause and/or necessity (Especially when dealing with X-Realm). If you recruit a player of that nature, you need to give them the chance to play. Every single player I’ve ever granted trial to I’ve damn well pushed them as hard as I can. I’d expect them to raid nearly every day, I want them to prove activity, dedication, there willingness to prepare, and overall their ability to raid, because guess what? if you bring in hardcore raider and don’t have a clean cut spot for him to raid, you’ll lose them to a guild who knows how to man manage in an efficient manner and can utilise such personnel.

Now I’ve been told my gear isn’t good enough to cut progression raids - yet if you care to check recount or WWS you’ll see I have been extremely competitive (Top 1-2) on your metres with sub par gear (Hell, I don‘t even have the “epic“ achievement yet). My rotation’s are back to being flawless, I have made very few fuck-ups, and I have been available for every raid bar one since being here. I have been trying to impress you, yet I’m overlooked for no real apparent reason.

Now this is where my outlook must differ to yours and our definition of hardcore changes. Having been a raid leader I always take my best players, I know exactly who is working there arse off to be on the progress raids - if my two year rogue is getting his arsed kicked by the two week old trialist, then there is no doubt who I’m taking. PLEASE don’t let this fool you, this isn’t because mr two year rogue is in anyway less skilled its because he’s comfortable as fuck - just watch you’ll see your two yearer the next week compete like you haven’t seen him do in fucking years.

What I’m trying to say to you is, if I’m not being judged on performance then there is absolutely no point in being here, the reason I stayed outside of TOTC on Sunday for nearly two hours , was to show you dedication, to show you how fucking eager I was to be inside. For that to be totally overlooked and for Shant to be brought in who had turned up late was frankly an insult to me. It’s all well and good stating redundant facts like “Raider over Trial” but you recruited that trial in the hope of becoming a raider so give him a chance!

I’d urge to review your policies on the issue, as I can foresee it happening time and time again if you don’t, your guild is popular and for good reason, I just hope you can take heed and learn from mistakes.

[Centaris]

I'm not an officer but if that's how you feel and have been treated I sincerly hope that the officers team will have a talk about this and straighten it out so it doesn't happen in the future.

Thank you also for your insights on how to handle situations and I totally agree: If a trial is recruited he/she should be in every raid to prove their worth and be tested so that the might become a member eventually. If not, what's the point of recruiting?

In the matter of the progression raid I can't say that I agree since you say your gear aren't "up to standard" and choosing Shantier over you is no insult on just those basis. The raidleader knows shantier and his abilities and is not familiar with yours so I would problably take the same descision.

Anyway, sorry to see you leave before I got the chance to know you and good luck in your future adventures.

[Nazarov]

[Dapo]

Sorry to see you leaving.
You are right in few things that trials should get more chance on progress raids specialy if he is skilled ,you got it on NB 25 h progress kill you did well,you dont have best gear but you doing very well that telling me you are ok player.You came as x-realm transfer that means you paid to came show up your skill and enjoy game with us that means you should have even more prio as trial in 1st few weeks.
1)Now some fact about our guild we are more like 1 big happy family where you can have fun ,find good mates,enjoy game ,get any kind of help from guildmebers ..etc,when you get some irl things to do and need to go afk 2 to 5 days guild understand that also (alowing it ).
2)So we arent just some stupid hardcore guild (LOOT FACTROY) where evry1 is selfish looking just after themselvs and when problems in progress come and we dont get loot ---------> guild die .
3) We are hardcore guild in building we just got hardcore raid time but not all hardcore standards
4)We are slow and officers are a bit slow in promoting trials in members /raiders ranks so trial period is too long for my taste.
Now facts about your trial period
1) You was absent few days on trial period and didnt show up on time for few raids.
Did we gkick you becouse of bad attendance no (some fracking hardcore guild prolly would do that fast very fast)
2) You know you should be ready to stay on sitout and learn how to be on sitout there are boss witch need just 3 to 4 healers and we got 6 to7 good healers some1 need to be on sitout life is like that .
3) Mabey officers was testing your nervs and your patience ???and you already faild??
Who need members with low patience and why to gear up them fast so they can get upset ,mad after 1 single sitout and leave guild .
4) Think you didnt give guild chance to accept you.
5) I think you did bad when you reacted fast and left guild mabey next week should be your lucky week .
( i was trial myself about 50 days ,i was on sitout a lot ,i was geting loot always last for long period see where i am now why becouse i had a lot patience,becouse i am polite ,becouse i am not guildhoper and i dont expect to get in raids 1st day i join guild ninja all loot and than leave guild faster than i came in ).

All in all you show us that you have short nerves and low patience.
I would like to see you back in guild and hoppe you l 'come back in guild.
But it on officers if they wana gife you 2nd chance and up to you if you gona accept it.

All this things above was friendly tips mate . Good Luck
/salute

[Mattomeo]

With the possibility of turning a serious topic to something else, I would like to say the following:

Thats why trials get all the mounts.
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"Every time your first Shield Slam misses, God kills a Warlock
Think of the Warlocks!"

[Noxxious]

I can see your points and some of them is also why I left the guild, the main thing that has been misunderstood by some players in Fortuna, is that they are a hardcore guild, but being a person who has raided and is back to raiding in a hardcore guild, I have to say Fortuna is not even close to be a hardcore guild.

Yes Fortuna is nr. 1 on the server and yes they deserve being there, they play well and they don't stop, just because of some players failing over and over again. But a hardcore guild, replaces people who doesn't have skill, and they make their players compete amongst each other, so they strive to be better players, to fight over spots to earn their place in the raid. A hardcore guild gives loot away to a player, where they can see they make the raid stronger, not to someone who constantly asks to be put on sitout on bosses he doesn't need loot on, or who doesn't come online on wipe nights.

Another thing you have to take in consideration, most of the officer in this guild, doesn't know how to run a hardcore raiding guild and some doesn't even want to, they want the guild to be a social guild that raids and do it with success, but they don't want to push their members to hard, nor force loot to be handled fairly instead of blindly by a point system.

I have to agree with you, that it is wrong of the officers to try and get skilled hardcore raiders to join them, under the assumption that Fortuna is a hardcore guild, but then again next time you aply to a hardcore guild, check how many days they raid and which ranking they have, the more days they use and the lower ranking they have, the less of a hardcore raiding guild they are, since most endgame hardcore raiding guilds that is at the top 500, either use 3-4 days to show quality over quantity. Also check raidschedules and talk with the officers, what they focus on and if they have normal 10 man on their schedule, or normal mode old content 25 man on their schedule like example, Ulduar normal 25 then they aren't hardcore, since hardcore only do these runs in of-raid days, to gear up and test new members, also to test new members you don't have to bring them to 25 man, you can make an officer/veteran team in 10 man heroic to test and stress the new trialist. But if you don't plan on taking your trialist with you in the heroic 25 man, then let them know before you start the raid, that they will probably not be needed, so they can go do something else then look at a instance door for 2-4 hours.

Good luck to you and I gotta say I aint surprised you outhealed some of the others, eventhough you were lesser geared, simply because some people in the raids doesn't push themselves at all, because they know they got a raid spot no matter what.
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[Nazarov]

1)Now some fact about our guild we are more like 1 big happy family where you can have fun ,find good mates,enjoy game ,get any kind of help from guildmebers ..etc,when you get some irl things to do and need to go afk 2 to 5 days guild understand that also (alowing it ).
2)So we arent just some stupid hardcore guild (LOOT FACTROY) where evry1 is selfish looking just after themselvs and when problems in progress come and we dont get loot ---------> guild die .
3) We are hardcore guild in building we just got hardcore raid time but not all hardcore standards
4)We are slow and officers are a bit slow in promoting trials in members /raiders ranks so trial period is too long for my taste.
Now facts about your trial period Smile
1) You was absent few days on trial period and didnt show up on time for few raids.
Did we gkick you becouse of bad attendance no (some fracking hardcore guild prolly would do that fast very fast)
2) You know you should be ready to stay on sitout and learn how to be on sitout there are boss witch need just 3 to 4 healers and we got 6 to7 good healers some1 need to be on sitout life is like that .
3) Mabey officers was testing your nervs and your patience ???and you already faild??
Who need members with low patience and why to gear up them fast so they can get upset ,mad after 1 single sitout and leave guild .
4) Think you didnt give guild chance to accept you.
5) I think you did bad when you reacted fast and left guild mabey next week should be your lucky week .
( i was trial myself about 50 days ,i was on sitout a lot ,i was geting loot always last for long period see where i am now why becouse i had a lot patience,becouse i am polite ,becouse i am not guildhoper and i dont expect to get in raids 1st day i join guild ninja all loot and than leave guild faster than i came in ).

[Darkíe]

Hi Nazarov.

i understand your point's very well, i tried something similer when i moved to Stormrage and joined Elitism there, i transferred there from hellscream with the promise of a raidspot if i could be on par with the other's and i was that for 2 week's, then the 2 druids that had been slacking came back because of thier spot wasn't "safe" anymore, that left me outside the instance for 5 whole raiding day's, just sitting around doing nothing at all but wasting time, i can see the same has happend to you here and it is a shame.

Fortuna isn't a hardcore raiding guild, it is just a raiding guild that tries to be social at the same time as raiding, posing it as something else is wrong, it is misleading ppl to join onfalse grounds and that isn't good for anyone.

I wish you the best of luck in finding a new home, atleast the transfer CD isn't that long anymore.

[Rodriquez]

Ok guys,

sorry for not posting sooner but I have had no internet access.

Lets try and get this thread back to the problem which is why Nazarov got passed over for a raid slot on Jarraxus. Rather than discuss the short comings of the officer team and loot system.

Now the person you should blame is probably me for the choice of Shantier, over you, we have in Fortuna a rank system, to use a ‘redundant excuse’ Raider over trial.
Regardless of weather you can out heal Miss Nightingale wearing only pyjamas. Otherwise we should all be ‘members’ and first come first served.

You agreed to the rank system by default when you joined as a trial by the way. So quit the cheap shots.

Further if you hadn’t had your ‘prima donna - stamp my feet - hissy fit’ you would have had my slot on the faction champions.
The above isn’t a titbit to entice you back to the guild, on the contrary I personally wouldn’t invite you back to Fortuna, even if I consider you to be good at your chosen class.

Good luck in your future endeavours.

Rodriquez.

[Nazarov]

I refuse to make my point for a third time - i stress you may want to actually read my posts in-depth.

I'll address the prima donna attitude though - Firstly DO NOT try and belittle any of this by describing it as a "hissy fit". i have a family and a child as i'm aware you have also, with a busy life i'd like to spend as much free time with them, and when i'm sat like a prick for nearly two hours only to have a spare spot filled by a player who was late and have the "raider over trial" excuse enforced without even a whisper or notification is not acceptable in terms of social skills and being polite and in terms of raiding ethics. (Please read other posts for views on actual hardcore raid guild selection)


**Being an X-Realm player i dont have any alts on the server to play as you do, and i am not going to transfer them over whist on trial for obvious reasons. I currently am not working full time during the day, so all the daily runs have been completed and i have nothing left to do...apart from raid.

I have a hardcore attitude - you proclaim to be a hardcore guild - you invite hardcore players with hardcore attitudes and don't have the space to actually TRIAL them as a player then don't bother. I'm afraid you've misconstrued my attitude, what i've shown is frustration because as i hardcore player i spent my money to come raid not sit on the side lines and be overlooked for raids when it suits you.

It shows and highlights your ignorance ten fold that you immediately stereotype me as prima dona because you cannot comprehend a hardcore players attitude. I WANTED TO RAID FOR YOU - I WANTED TO IMPRESS YOU - I WANTED TO SHOW MY DEDICATION (all attributes that i for one would love from a trialist) and when such efforts are ignored and overlooked entirely, set alarm bells ringing and then for the following night to another massive waste of time for no reason - it became abundantly clear this was not a place for me.

I've made my reasons clear in my other posts - feel free to actually read them.

The main problem seems to be peoples definition of Hardcore and what a hardcore guild entails - i will definately be more careful in the future when appyling for guilds who claim to hold such ethics. As i hope you're more careful when accepting people into your guild who actually want to raid.

[Rodriquez]

Dont get me wrong Nazarov, I have read your posts carefully.

Your 'gripe' is the passing over of the raid slot - ok I addressed that I also qualified the hardcore stuff - not the correct thread.

I think you are missing the point - you had a slot in the raid - but, you chose to go offline in what appeared to be a 'hissy fit'

What you should have done was whispered me or any officer and explained your problem, as you have professed to be an ex raid leader and guild master you should know how to behave, considering also that you are a responsible adult with a family.

To address your other point about no one explaining to you about the inclusion of Shantier in the raid is a moot point - and its a two way street, as I said above you could have made a whisper too.

Anyway - you have made your point and I have made mine I believe.

[Nazarov]

Oh so it was MY job to whisper you - not yours to infrom the people who were on STANDBY for two hours to what you were actually doing.

I maybe totally out of sync with the world and common decency but i see this as general social skills and basic man management.

I'm also not sure why your bringing my responsibilites of family into the discussion, and i feel your getting dangerously close to getting personal, for no reason what so ever.

As a raid leader and GM and as a manger working within a company i know the importance of man management and keep people happy, as a leadership it is YOUR job to communicate to your personel what is going on so ulitmately you're not wasting my time.

As explained previously i went off in frustration to ultimtely doing something productive, i.e spend time with my family. If you had simply been able to communicate effectively a simple "Hey Naz, we'll try and get you in at some point this evening, but i'd like to take Shant in at this time etc etc" then there would have been little problem, a bit of customer service in essence, a bit of fucking courtesy and mangement. Simple isn't it....apparently not.

I'd advise if you'd like to utilise an effective standby system especially with the amount of trialist you take on - is to make a STANDBY channel therefore you can communicate such information to a mass audience quickly as possible.

[Darkíe]

Guy's, some here seam's to miss the real point in all of this, as a TRIAL you have to raid to prove your self, you can't do it on sitout, so we (Fortuna) should not ask ppl to transfere and then stick them on sitout, Raiders can be put on sitout just as well as anyone else, in fact these day's it seam's hard work to get raiders to show up for raids at all.

So, imo raider or not, if you are late, even posted that you will be late, you have forfitted your "safe ans secure raider spot" and we should bring in ppl on sitout if their class is needed.

If i had been in the same situation, i'm pretty sure i had done the same thing, ppl that know me know's that i'm not a hothead, but i also hate wasting my time on nonsence, and sitout is very close to that for a raider.

[Calibano]

This post holds some good points and some ways we can improve so thanks for that Nazarov. But I will say that I remember trialling you as much as I could, you were not on standby often, twice? One time you left and went offline.

After this Gephet spoke to you and he had the impression you understood the situation and were okay with it.

I appreciate being replaced by someone who shows up late does suck, and I'm glad you care and have an attitude that you want to be in the raids.

It's not like you were always on sitout, you were in for Heroic beasts and quite a lot of 10 man's I believe and I just would of hoped we could of spoken about it and made a real effort to include you at all times and TRIAL you as you say. Let's not exaggerate this post as though we give trials no chance at all.

As for Shantier being late he posted it and we were aware before raid, it was felt we needed our most experienced raiders (due to not needed so many healers) in the raid at the time and it was 25 man HC. This wasn't given much discussion except post-leaving guild, but better later than never.

Once again I'm sorry your trial was not that of which you expected. I think you realise you do have a lack of patience there, make sure the fire in your belly to raid doesn't make you leave another guild so quickly, sometimes you will be on sitout.

I wish you luck and it's a shame things went this way. This will give me and the officers food for thought, and hopefully we'll trial a lot more effectively in future, though I do recognise your frustration, I must admit I do think you left rather quickly considering.

I felt you did well on your trial and you're a decent player, so thanks for your time.

I wish you good luck with your next step whatever it is :]

Calibano